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August 04, 2006
Breastfeeding
Hmmm. This discussion (which I read part of after it was linked to here) got me thinking.
I personally find breastfeeding actively disgusting. I think it's because it's such a tactile thing - it's like watching someone eat, where it makes me think of what it must feel like. As a result, seeing a woman breastfeeding makes me actively imagine a baby latching onto me - something which frankly, kind of creeps me out. {{{shudder}}} Or it makes me actively imagine being the baby... which leads into all sorts of weird Freudian places. Yikes. It's the same way I find... I dunno, a guy scratching his balls to be gross (I don't want to think about how some random guy's balls feel!).
Now, I'm not down with making it illegal to breastfeed in public, any more than I think it should be illegal to scratch your balls in public. That's just... incredibly pedantic.
But you know, I reserve the right to frown a bit and actively look away, and say things to my friends like, "yecch, that woman is breastfeeding over there," the same way I would say, "yecch, that guy just scratched his balls!" What makes nursing worse, mind you, is that it goes on longer.
I think what it really comes down to is this: nursing Moms don't want to have their lives interrupted by having to arrange their schedules around feeding their offspring in private. But you know what? having a baby completely changes your life and makes you have to rearrange your schedule. It's like... you should get a babysitter, not take your eight-year-old to see The Omen (yeah, I was at a theater for that movie and there were little kids there). Same way, you should either pump or whatever so you have a bottle handy for your kid or make sure you'll be home when it needs to feed. It's not like someone forced you to have the baby (well, I suppose that could happen, but the women who are bitching about nursing being slightly taboo had a choice).
File under: Musings
Posted by Ealasaid at August 4, 2006 04:42 PM
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Comments
Is anyone here offended by public breastfeeding?
I am not offended, but I do stare a lot. I think it is my right if they are doing it in public.
Posted by: Rich at August 4, 2006 08:26 PM
i'd be curious to know if your feelings change once you have kid(s). i know mine did and i'm an avid breastfeeder -- anytime, anywhere. my baby eats just like anybody else. and it's our right to breastfeed in public.
Posted by: anon at August 4, 2006 10:05 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more.
Breastfeeding is more natural than walking down the street drinking a coffee.
It is proven to be healthy for the child, and intuitively healthier for the planet, as there is no packaging or extra garbage being created.
Pumped breast milk, at least my friend's I haven't done an exhaustive study, sours in about an hour, so the pump and bottle feed option is only functional for stay at home mothers.
The concept that being a mother should prevent you from going out in public is exactly the concept that kept women out of the workplace for so many centuries and still limits women's options today.
The idea that breast feeding should be done in private furthers the myth that women have to become like men to: a) be in public, b) function in the work place and c) be respected and if that's how you feel I am truly sad.
I'm comfortable in the belief that I can do anything a man can do worth doing (except the whole peeing standing up thing, and I hear that they have some sort of device for that), but I'm a woman and I'm proud of that, and that means I'm not ashamed of my body, so when my baby (when I have one) needs to be fed I'm going to feed her/him, and the idea that I should hide that is quite frankly offensive.
That all may come off as a bit harsh, for wich I apologize, but I really do think it's a vital issue.
Posted by: Sarah Williams at August 4, 2006 10:46 PM
ITA with you (and yes, I'm a woman). But since I don't like creating much of a fuss, I'll just leave the room if and when I can. I can't see myself having kids. But if I do, I'm not breastfeeding, and there's not a damn thing those ridiculous boob nazis could show me that would make me change my mind.
Posted by: Corrine at August 5, 2006 07:31 AM
"Same way, you should either pump or whatever so you have a bottle handy for your kid or make sure you'll be home when it needs to feed."
Here's the problem with that - many breastfed babies will not take a bottle. And those who do, most of the time, will not take it from their mom (because they know she can nurse them).
And since babies don't eat on a schedule, saying "stay home to feed" is like saying "never go out just in case the baby gets hungry" because some babies are all over the place with when they eat. They may eat every 2 hours one day, every 4 the next, they may eat at 2pm and be hungry at 4, but then not again until 9. And no, you can't schedule a baby ;).
There's nothing hard about discreetly nursing, however, as all it takes is 10 seconds to rearrange your tshirt so no breast/areola is showing (the baby covers your stomach area so that isn't showing) and you can do it while revealing less than a tank top shows. So, despite the fact I support the right to public nursing (really, any eating in public), I will admit that I can't stand hearing about these women that "can't" get it right. It takes about 2 seconds of effort people, come on.
Posted by: Eve at August 5, 2006 01:15 PM
Our culture has made bare breasts in public a taboo. Women should be able to feed their children when their children need to be fed, but can they cover up? Just use the spit-up blanket if you have to. Frankly, I'd be creeped out at the idea that people were watching me doing something like breastfeeding. My period is healthy and natural as well, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my tampon in public and expect other people to approve.
Posted by: Annie at August 5, 2006 04:25 PM
Sarah: Naw, not harsh at all. You disagree, and that's A-OK.
A couple points:
Lots of things are "natural" which are not OK to do in public. Changing clothing, say. Masturbation. Picking one's nose.
My mom breastfed me and as far as I know didn't do it regularly in public - and yet she managed to take me all sorts of places (including a sci-fi convention or three) when I was still a babe-in-arms. I'll have to ask her for details.
I also know she used to leave bottles of pumped milk in the fridge/freezer for babysitters when she was gone for long periods.
Basically, I'm not saying mothers shouldn't go out in public. That's ... so stupid I'm actually mildly offended that you think I'm saying that. I'm saying: plan ahead as much as possible and do it in private as much as possible.
Posted by: Ealasaid at August 6, 2006 10:37 AM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here because this is an issue I feel strongly about (and me without kids - go figure).
I find it interesting that you equate breast feeding with public masturbation. It relegates a perfectly natural method of feeding a child to an objectionable act, which demonstrates your level of revulsion. The objection to it comes from the thoughts you have surrounding it, not the act itself particularly, according to your first post. When a woman breast feeds within sight of you, you imagine all these things that discomfit you, thus you would prefer she not breast feed around you so that you can avoid thinking those thoughts.
I'm sure everyone has had that same visceral moment of imagining themselves breast feeding when they see it, and felt the shock and embarrassment at those thoughts. But once that's over, it's just... breast feeding. It's like driving a car or doing yard work. It just happens to involve part of a woman's body that is also an erogenous zone.
By making the comment 'Eww, that woman is breast feeding!' you're attempting to shame that woman into leaving your sight so that you don't have to deal with your reaction to it. You're making her responsible for your thoughts, images and feelings.
So, what if mothers were forced to stop breast feeding in public? How is that different from women being excluded from management positions in the workplace (or being excluded completely from the work place)? How is it different from women being excluded from colleges? How is it different from a female math student being told that she must have gotten her boyfriend to solve a particularly difficult math problem that none of the other male students solved? I was horrified when I read that story in the Chronicle.
Women were (and still are to some extent) being excluded from the work place and from college because they are female. But more than that, women were and are being excluded because of the sensations and resentments they engender in men.
Men get embarrassed and shamed when women are more competent and more intelligent than they are, when women can take care of themselves as well if not better than men can. You're 'Eww, breast feeding!' becomes a man's 'You're not smart enough to solve that problem. Science is too difficult for a woman so you can't get that Neuroscience PhD. Oh, honey, you must be on your period, so anything you say isn't valid.' Men make women responsible for a man's feeling of inadequacy.
If we women impose penalties on other women for our own shame and embarrassment haven't we become as destructive and oppressive as men?
Posted by: Alleahna at August 7, 2006 12:59 PM
Anon: Don't assume I'm going to have children! Good grief, you don't even know me. Try this phrase on for size: "if you have children." Say it a few times. It'll become natural. [/sarcasm] Sorry to snark but goddamn I'm sick of hearing "when you have kids" from strangers.
Alleahna: devil's advocate away! I'm always up for a good debate. You make a good point - however, I'm not equating public nursing to public masturbation but to a guy adjusting his genitals. I know from my male friends that this is an occasional necessity, but it's still not something you're supposed to do flagrantly in public... presumably for similar reasons to the cultural objection to breastfeeding. It's not a gender issue, it's a "don't do things involving your reproductive organs in public" issue.
And generally, I'm polite enough not to make snarky comments loudly enough to draw the attention of the object of my snark. :)
Eve: Thanks for the input! I had never heard breastfed babies won't take a bottle. I am pretty sure I bottlefed because I remember Mom talking about leaving bottles for babysitters and whatnot. (Being childfree, I don't talk about this stuff with her a ton so I don't have details). Anyway, thanks! More info is always good.
Posted by: Ealasaid at August 7, 2006 05:27 PM
As the "whatnot," I can state authoritatively that Ealasaid accepted a bottle when her mother was not around. Offhand, I can't recall whether there was ever an issue of her refusing a bottle presented by her mother.
Posted by: Dad at August 8, 2006 04:38 PM
To further the discussion.
1) Eating in public is not taboo, eating like a slob is. If the mother is being considerate by being in a quiet corner and/or covering up, is it that different from eating with a fork and spoon?
2) Men are considered okay to be topless in public and women aren't except in small tribes in other countries.
Ealasaid said "I'm not equating public nursing to public masturbation but to a guy adjusting his genitals. I know from my male friends that this is an occasional necessity, but it's still not something you're supposed to do flagrantly in public."
Flagrant (from m-w.com) means "conspicuously offensive, so obviously inconsistent with what is right or proper as to appear to be a flouting of law or morality."
I don't think nursing mothers intend to be offensive, they're just responding to their child's biological need. I also don't think they're flouting our law or morality since there's nothing immoral or illegal regarding breastfeeding.
Is it more that there is a child's mouth on someone's breast? If so, wouldn't it be more appropriate to equate it with public tongue kissing rather than crotch scratching? I don't equate a child's mouth to a hand any more than a breast to genitals.
You once said that "parent" is a verb. I would much rather see a few breastfeeding mothers and encourage good parenting (not that bottle feeding mothers aren't good parents - they are) and allow them to continue functioning in society (jobs, activities, etc.) than discourage considerate public breastfeeding and have new mothers secluded or forced to pump and bottle.
Posted by: agengrgal at August 10, 2006 02:42 PM
Agengrgal - yay for discussion!
I don't equate breastfeeding with tongue kissing because breastfeeding isn't sexual (or at least, so the activists keep telling me). There is no exact analogue because breastfeeding is at once an act of feeding (which is good) and motherhood (which is good to most people, indifferent to most of the rest), and an act which closely mimics something very sexual - the same way a guy scratching his balls mimics something very sexual but is in itself not a sexual act.
Another reason I equate it with scratching balls is because they're both things that do get done in public - but that should be done inconspicuously. I mean, if a guy turns toward a wall or something and adjusts himself, ok. I can deal - hell, I probably won't even notice. But I don't really want to see a guy standing in the middle of a park scratching himself for all to see. You know?
Ditto with breastfeeding. If a woman wants to breastfeed her kid while she's out in public, fine - but she should damn well do it inconspicuously. It's not a spectator sport. Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of the pro-public-breastfeeding crowd think I should see a breastfeeding mama in public and go "awww!" or stand around to appreciate the miracle of motherhood or something. No. I think if one must breastfeed while out and about, one should do so as inconspicuously as possible. Leave the room, go to a quiet place in the park, whatever.
Again, I'm not going to advocate banning breastfeeding in public, nor am I going to publicly berate a woman breastfeeding her child. But I still think public breastfeeding should be avoided as much as possible and done very discreetly when it can't be avoided.
Posted by: Ealasaid at August 10, 2006 03:36 PM
No, I don't think you need to stand around and say "Awww" or think I'm a paragon of motherhood or some such nonesense. I want you to give as little mind to me as you would if I were bottlefeeding - and that includes if I happen to be sitting on a bench in the middle of a public park rather than retreating to a more isolated area (which would be impossible, for example, if I'm watching my toddler play at the playground at the time the baby gets hungry). I'll do my best to show as little skin as possible (without resorting to covering with a blanket, which is awkward, uncomfortable for both mom and baby in hot weather, and can actually draw more attention to what is happening), but I'm also not going to remove myself from general public view in order to avoid offending someone.
I recognize that our society's screwed up values may make it impossible for me not to get stared at or receive negative looks/comments from those who cannot adequately distinguish between feeding a baby and a sexual act. (And, as someone who greatly appreciates nipple stimulation during sex, I can honestly say that it's *not* the same thing at all. In fact, it squicks me if nipple stimulation during sex does start to resemble breastfeeding.)
Bottlefeeding, even pumped milk, is not an adequate answer. Nutritionally, milk straight from the tap is the healthiest feeding option - milk directly from someone who isn't the baby's mother is actually healthier than pumped milk from the mother. Not all women can produce for a pump, even though they may have no problem producing enough milk to feed their child directly. Babies can develop a preference for the bottle and refuse to breastfeed, making maintaining supply enough to continue breastfeeding the child much more difficult, or even impossible. Or, as others have mentioned, the baby may refuse to take a bottle.
Even assuming that everything is going optimally, pumping is a huge pain in the ass, and not something that should be expected of a mom who simply wishes to be able to go out in public for an extended period of time.
And by breastfeeding, I'm helping to lower your insurance premiums by protecting against a wide range of short and long term health problems. I don't expect your applause or appreciation for that, since your health insurance premiums certainly aren't my primary consideration in choosing to breastfeed. However, I would greatly appreciate it if you'd simply ignore me, rather than frowning, making negative comments, or otherwise making an act that can be very difficult harder than it already is.
Posted by: Jessica at August 10, 2006 06:02 PM
I am a big fan of breastfeeding. It's natural and it does wonders for both the baby and the mother. That being said, I don't think nursing mother should complain when people stare at them or make comments. I realize Americans are more prudish than other nations, but in a nation where covering up is considered the more prudent thing to do, people are going to stare at a woman baring a naked breast. No matter that there's a baby attached to it - there's a BOOB OUT IN PUBLIC. And nursing mothers get so defensive: "It's natural! Deal with it!" Well, so is sex and defecating, but you don't see anyone doing that in public, do you? Do you want us to deal with that, yet? So although I do agree with breastfeeding, the door should swing both ways - you should think of the comfort of others around you before you start spouting about nature. Pump at home and carry breastmilk bottles with you. Several businesses offer a "mother's room" - use it. Don't force it down everyone's throats.
Posted by: Blue at November 23, 2006 08:04 AM
I happen to be a ultra right wing catholic conservative who was taught since i was a kid about manners, class, decency and values. When a women public breastfeeds her child, it shows she has no MANNERS, IT SHOWS SHE HAS NO UPSCALE CLASS AND DECENCY. Public breastfeeding should be illegal in all 50 states because its an act of lewed conduct and a sexual perversion act. To public breastfeed would be like if a man were to take out his jar in public and start urinating inside of it. Classy, well mannered, upscale women dont breastfeed in public, instead they use a bathroom, a nursing room or a car where its out of the customers best interest and for her best interest away from peeping Toms
Posted by: Sean at December 18, 2006 07:53 PM
In response to Sean ; You may have been taught all about manners, class, decency and values but you obviously missed the lessons on grammar and punctuation. Women who breastfeed in public, may in your opinion, have NO UPSCALE CLASS AND DECENCY yet I'm sure the majority of them are more capable of constructing a cohesive sentence than you. Breasts serve no other purpose than providing nourishment for babies and it is only the prudish attitude of others who have equated them as a sexual object. To call breastfeeding a "sexual perversion act" or indeed "lewed"(sic) is totally ridiculous and undermines what little substance your argument contains. Babies need food, breastfeeding is unquestionably the most beneficial means of feeding and if someone taking care of their child puts you off your Cafe Mocha then that's solely down to your intolerant attitude.
Posted by: Laurence at February 4, 2007 09:13 PM
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